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Author Topic: Issues with SMF's edited on a G70  (Read 2578 times)
 
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Diki
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« on: June 17, 2013, 07:43:21 AM »

I am bringing this topic up for Fran...
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« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2013, 08:18:55 AM »

Quote from: Fran Carango
Diki, if you can check  the SMF play with the file I posted...Do the drums play correct...? I would like to know they corrected this  problem reading the G70 edits..

No Fran... probably the same issue as with the BK-5. To be frank, the BK refuses to go into Makeup Tools mode at all. You can put it into 16 track sequencer mode, but just like the G70, this ignores any makeup tool work you have done not 'frozen'.

But there's a different problem in the 16 track sequencer. I am presuming that track 10 is the drum track. When you first load up the SMF, in the 16 track sequencer that shows as Rock Kit. But as soon as you play, it turns into an Organ sound (I think). There's a bunch of sys-ex on the Master track, but too much to individually erase them all and see what happens.

I think you need to be a bit more detailed to better track down the issue.

First of all, start with a GS SMF (not an XG, as the manual says it can't work on those) that plays fairly well in your G70 with no editing at all. Post that. THEN bring it up in your G70 and change ONE thing in the Makeup Tools. Let's say the Drum Kit. Nothing else. Save it with another name to the original. Then 'freeze' it and save it with another name. Now post those, and I'll try them in the BK-9 (and you try them in your BK-5) and let's see what happened.

This is going to tell us a lot more than this particular file, which I have no idea what it was originally, where you got it, and what you did to it in the G70.

Tracking down issues like this takes patience and a methodical approach. Let's work together on this, and see what we can do...

You said in your OP that you wanted to know if they corrected this problem. I'd like to know, do they know about the problem in the first place? Did you send them this file, and describe the issue? If so, how long ago? Hard for them to come out with a fix that fast! We had good relations with Roland during the debugging phase of the G70's development. Let's do what we can to help them repeat that for the BK's development cycle...  Kiss

* -BEYOND2(1).MID (86.52 KB - downloaded 89 times.)
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 08:20:33 AM by Diki » Logged

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Diki
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« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2013, 10:22:34 AM »

OK... update. I found out how to select multiple things in the Master track, so I selected all the sys-ex and deleted it, and now the SMF plays fine. I imagine you can do this in the BK-5, Fran.

But what else you did with the Makeup Tools in the G70, I have no idea right now. Or whether they all got lost if you didn't 'freeze' the Makeup Tool'd file in the G70 first.

But it's that sys-ex that's the issue, Fran. Get rid of that, and the SMF can be Makeup Tool'd no problem. Right now, I took a hammer and deleted it all. Possible it's just one of the sys-ex strings, but it's going to take a lot more time than I have right now to check which of them is the culprit.

You've always got the option, if we find out whether deleting ALL the sys-ex makes much difference to your edited file, of finding a batch conversion program or script for a DAW, and simply have it batch delete all sys-ex from every SMF in a folder, automating the task for you. But, push comes to shove, you are going to want to use the newer, better sounds anyway, so I don't suppose it matters that much if cutting all the sys-ex out does more damage to the edits in the G70 Makeup Tool section...

Anyway, I wouldn't take this as a 'fix', simply a workaround for right now. But if it helps...  Tongue
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« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2013, 10:25:01 AM »

And I'd still like to try the thing I mentioned of taking a regular GS file, Makeup Tooling ONE parameter, and seeing what one it is that causes the disruptive sys-ex...
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« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2013, 09:05:42 PM »

Diki, you cannot edit a master track on the BK5...no sequencer..

The problem I have found is not because they were XG sequences..the problem  arises with other files too...The common denominator is system exclusive pertaining to transpose in the "common" tab in make up tools....Once this system script is removed it will allow the BK to play and shows as a "make up tool" editable file..
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« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2013, 09:39:53 PM »

Would you mind copying that sys-ex string (in text) and posting it here for Roland to look at?

BTW, if you 'Freeze' the edits for transpose in the G70, the note data should get transposed and the sys-ex removed, right? Maybe that's your workaround...
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« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2013, 10:46:46 PM »

Hi all,

What I can see into the Midi File, if I open it with Sonar or Cakewalk is that the Track 01 and 10 have two bank select set to 18 and 16256 respectively.

Into the SysEx part I also can see that the GM Mode is activated and of course in this mode you cant use a Patch different from Bank 0.

When I play the MIDI-File on the PC using Sonar or Cakewalk with the different devices (External Fast Track where the G-70 is connected, the internal Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth or the CoolSoft VirtualMidiSynth) the track 10 play the Drum and not the Bass as displayed...

If a play the file with the vanBasco and the Microsoft GS Wavetable Synth then the track 10 don't paly the drum, but if I use the the other two device the drum is there.

Interpretation of the CC0 and CC32 for instrument that can do more than only GM Mode is the problem if not right implemented the Driver.

I will do other tests with CUBASE and then will add the info to this Post...

PS: I have opened the MIDI-File with CUBASE 7, I have eliminated all the SysEx related to the Yamaha XG Mode, Changed the SysEx from GM to GM2 Mode, cut out the 2nd and 3rd measures without notes at the beginning of the file and Exported the new result as MidiFile Format-0 with a new name.
The attached File "Beyond2_Roland_GV.mid" now play the same instruments on all my 3 devices with vanBasco too...



Kind Regards
Giovanni


* Beyond2_Track_Problem.jpg (235.69 KB, 711x495 - viewed 167 times.)
* Beyond2_Roland_GV.mid (83.35 KB - downloaded 84 times.)

* Beyond2_SysEx_GM_43_41.jpg (286.48 KB, 455x828 - viewed 180 times.)

* Beyond2_2Bars_No_Notes.jpg (146.33 KB, 417x477 - viewed 217 times.)
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 11:23:35 PM by gvenuti » Logged

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Diki
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« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2013, 05:06:10 AM »

So that was an XG file originally? There's a possible culprit. Roland say quite specifically in the manual for the BK-9

Quote
The ?Rhythm Makeup Tools? and ?SMF Makeup Tools? functions
cannot be used to edit Standard MIDI Files that use the
XG format.
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Diki
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« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2014, 07:57:29 PM »

I'm working on a bunch of d-o-o SMF's originally for Yamaha's (I'm not sure if you purchase these files from d-o-o specifically for Roland, whether d-o-o don't include this Yamaha specific codes), and what I'm finding is that, if you remove all the sys-ex, the file plays and opens in the Makeup Tools fine.

However, if you've got some of these kinds of files, and were able to open them successfully in the G70 (and Makeup Tooled them there), removing ALL sys-ex is going to remove your Makeup Tool edits from the G70 as well as the Yamaha sys-ex. Not probably what you want to do. Mind you, every time I bring an SMF into a new keyboard, I like to edit it from scratch so I get to use the best of the new sounds and kits the new keyboard has, but I can imagine if you have a huge collection of honed SMF's, that could be a fair bit of work!

So, what we need to do is find out WHICH of the sys-ex codes you need to erase, and which to keep.

A typical SMF seems to have (on the Master Track) one sys-ex msg on tick one (001:01:001) which is fairly short, then most of them have a few more sys-ex events with a longer string. Erase those, you are good to go.

Quite honestly, Fran, I'd simply use a batch program to remove ALL sys-ex from any SMF that refuses to edit or play, and the BK-5 should be good to go. It can't really be that many, can it? Either that or do it by hand in a BK-9!
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